League Reconstruction

DR reporting that Livi have proposed a reconstruction similar to my idea above.
14 team top tier & 3 x 10 below with auto promotion for both Hi/Lo champions.

Having thought some more about a 14 team top tier it’s not as problematic as I suggested above. Although they don’t outline it beyond saying it would split into top 6 & bottom 8; having thought it through a bit more this actually works quite well.

IMO - Split would occur at the end of two rounds - 26 games - & there would be 2 more rounds post split giving a total of 36 games for top 6 & 40 games for bottom 8.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/livingston-outline-spfl-reconstruction-plan-21897822?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Oh...and it’s on the OCS now too

Not wanting this pushed through just to save Hearts from going down, that's all Anne Budge is bothering about, just to go back to a 12 team top tier the following season again. Feck that for a game of football, would be FAF if Hearts were one of the teams relegated right enough.

If we're going for a serious proposal, then it should have a season being played where you know it's happening, so either for next again season, or the one after, not this season here, keeping Hearts up.

Not keen on the play off idea either, not when there would be 2 up, 2 down, the league isn't going to be big enough for a play off relegation/promotion place too. I quite like the play offs though, so wouldn't mind keeping it as it is in a 14 team top tier, and just having 1 up/1 down, with a play off for 2nd bottom, or 2 down/1 up, and 2nd/3rd/4th/5th placed Championship teams playing for that 2nd promotion spot. Same set up as England, with the teams from the higher league just relegated and not involved in the play offs.

I grant you anything Ann Budge is involved in is with Hearts best interests in mind, however the “working party” for possible reconstruction is her along with the guys from Accies & St Mirren, so the end result will benefit all 3, as all 3 would be involved in the battle to stay up if the season resumed. Which is why I am not concerned one way or the other.

Postponing any reconstruction for a season is pointless though, it has to take effect immediately or there is no point in doing it. It is this season that is affected by the lockdown so it has to be implemented immediately.

Technically Celtic could still be caught, however we all know that no one would do so but the relegation issue is far from settled.

I actually like the Livi proposal & it shows that they really are not doing anything out of self interest as we don’t benefit other than being given 5th place prize money....but given we had a chance of finishing higher than 5th we are compromising rather than voting for own benefit. It also shows a proactive mindset at the club with a view to the best interests of Scottish Football as a whole. A 14 club division would also introduce a bit of breathing space in terms of the percentage of the division that can be relegated.

I’m not a fan of play offs but I must admit our promotion in that fashion was a brilliantly exciting journey. Like you I prefer the English format though.

Livi’s proposal is relatively simple & easily implemented but I won’t be surprised if the “official” proposal is more convoluted.

I disagree, what's the rush, if it can't wait a season then just don't bother with it*. And when/if it does happen, there should still be a team from the Premiership being relegated, so Hearts should still be going down if they're pushing it through just now. But the whole point of this just now is to save Hearts, so i'm against it, as it is a rush job with little interest for what's best long term.

I want a season's notice for league expansion, so everyone knows what they're playing for before the season starts, 3 up and 1 down to make it a 14 team top flight. Thereafter 2 down/2 up, or 2 down/1 up & a play off from the Championship teams to make up the 2nd promotion place, and the Premiership team having nothing to do with a play off.

*Especially so if it's what Budge is proposing, for 2 teams to come up this season, and Hearts not to go down, making it a 14 team top flight for next season, then having 3 teams relegated at the end of next season with one team promoted, to go back to a 12 team top flight. That is just a nonsense of an idea to save Hearts and not giving a monkeys about anyone else. Budge has some brass neck pretending this has anything to do with sporting integrity, righting a wrong, she's full of shite.

Tbh I don't think we'll even see any football this year, when this lockdown gets restrictions slackened there will still be social distancing laws, so mass events will still be banned. There wont be a return to football for fans until a vaccine is in use, that could even be as far away as June next year. So we could be looking at no season at all till 2021/22, scrapping 2020/21 season.

England may get a closed door season going, just having games on tv, or live streams for every club in a pay per view set up, don't know if we could do that in Scotland, maybe the top flight would be able to, but the lower leagues def wouldn't. But Sturgeon doesn't want televised games either, as it could encourage folk getting together watching the games and ignoring social distancing.

I haven’t seen Budge’s proposal but I agree that it shouldn’t be a change that only lasts 1 season. Which is why I like the Livi plan.

On the issue of “its only to save Hearts”.... if they were so far behind that they had no real chance of escaping then I’d agree but they still have a chance of staying up if the season played out, so it actually gives all 3 teams security. The financial implications of relegation are made worse by the season ending early & safeguarding ALL clubs in the current unexpected & unprecedented economic climate has to be the foremost priority of anything the league discusses & decides to do.

I am not opposed to league reconstruction as long as it is not done as a solution to this season's problems. As far as I'm concerned the season should be ended as it now stands with Hearts relegated. All this talk of the integrity of the game is hogwash. That same integrity argument could be used if reconstruction comes to pass. It is not what was proposed at the start of the season.
If the final league is based on the number of points gained by each team over an equal number of games played or perhaps on an average to accommodate the fact that some teams have a game in hand then that is fair.
For Hearts to say that they could have caught up if the season was completed is speculation. The season has to finish some time and any team at the bottom could always say - ah but if we had another couple of games we might have got the points.
These are unprecedented times we are living through where the SPFL rulebook becomes irrelevant.

Think about what you have said... ending the season now is NOT what everyone was playing for at the start of the season either, so as you rightly say the rule book goes out of the window. Therefore a reconstruction proposal is clearly something that can be considered.

In normal circumstances the season has to finish after 38 games, so no one can argue at that point that they could have survived if they had another couple of games. But as it stands there are a sufficient number of games left to alter how things are at the bottom.

I’m not saying we MUST reconstruct the leagues, I’m saying it has to be given full consideration & the single most important criteria has to be to ensure no club goes out of business, which is a real concern when you take into account the lack of gate money.

Livi have shown themselves to be proactive & forward thinking by identifying what the board had agreed to ensure the club keeps operating; getting fans involved in the “working capital/shares” plan; nailing their colours to the mast on the vote to end the season below the top tier; and now their proposal for reconstruction.

The reason I added the bit about league reconstruction not being what the clubs were playing for at the start of the season is because clubs like Hearts and Rangers are constantly quoted as saying that finishing the season before all the games are completed would breach the integrity of the game. I was pointing out that reconstruction falls into the same category but because that would suit Hearts then they are ok with it. I was aware that both scenarios could be construed as not what we're set out at the start of the season. You can't say one is ok but the other is not.

Exactly. Therefore no one can say ending it now is any more ok than reconstruction. Which is why whatever is decided is of very little importance to me as an individual.

We all need to take a step back, forget the personalities & clubs directly affected and look at the situation holistically with a view to what serves as the best option for everyone. Something Scottish Football has historically been very poor at. Which is why I find Livi’s reconstruction proposal refreshing, it has very little benefit to Livi but would benefit a number of others clubs including Partick & Stranraer as well as the Hi/Lo title winners, though Brora Rangers might not want promotion.

If that is to end the season now with all titles, promotions & relegations finalised as they stand then so be it. If it is to reconstruct then as long as it is a sensible reconstruction (and I am saying the Livi proposal is exactly that) then that too is fine by me.

Interestingly I am seeing no comments regarding Livi’s proposal or their comment that they always viewed the recent vote on ending the season for the leagues below the top tier as a two step process. There were a number of comments on their statement in favour of the end season vote but next to nothing on the reconstruction statement.

Reconstruction talks are fine, what i'm against though, is them being used by Hearts to remain in the Premiership going into next season. Imo if reconstruction takes place, and they want to reconstruct the league this season (before the Premiership has made a decision on ending/continuing) then there should still be a relegation for the bottom team, and 3 should come up from the Championship, with 1 going down from the Premiership, to increase the Premiership to 14 (then let us see how keen Hearts and Sevco are to push it through).

The last expansion took place ton increase the top flight from 10 teams to 12 teams, we just missed out on a play off with Aberdeen when Falkirk pipped us to 3rd place, then were refused the play offs due to stadium criteria rules. It was some weird 3 team play off between 2nd & 3rd 1st div teams and 10th SPL team, with 2 winning their places in the SPL. I really don't want that sort of proposal, where the bottom Premiership team gets to remain where it is, and that's exactly what will be proposed with Budge leading the proposal.

That's why i'd rather have reconstruction plans put through a season in advance, before the season has started, so we start the season knowing exactly what we're playing for. I realize the argument will be, that we aren't ending the season the way it was set out at the start of this season, due to C19, but 2 wrongs don't make it right, reconstruction to save relegation because play can't resume to complete fixtures. That's only a cop out to keep Hearts and Sevco happy.

That’s why it has to be a holistic approach, so that it is for the benefit of the entire league.

Budge has maintained from the outset that she doesn’t accept Hearts being relegated so it is completely predictable that this will be part of the proposal they put forward.

What I found interesting is that before they put any kind of proposal together Livi had shown their hand on the matter with their suggestion which clearly suspends relegation. I don’t think they are trying to curry favour with Budge, they are simply putting forward what they believe to be in the best interests of everyone. They could have suggested 1 down 3 up but decided on 0 down 2 up. Now when you consider the severity of measures we have been on the receiving end of, shows a magnanimous outlook.

Whatever the outcome it has to be better than what the Dutch have done.

Yeah we were prob the first club to come out publicly on where we stood voting for the season to end as it stands, and league placings being paid out their prize money too. That wouldn't have went down well with Budge.

For the most part I like our reconstruction proposal, I wouldn't have a 3rd relegation play off though, as I don't think a 14 team league is big enough to have 3 possible relegations happening a season, and I don't agree with no team being relegated if this is pushed through right now, to be in place this season. Again, I think it is just to appease Hearts feeling hard done to not being able to complete the season.

Prev experience of the top flight's self preservation though, if this reconstruction is pushed through, i'd be more surprised at seeing them not save the Premiership team from relegation. And for that reason i'm not enthusiastic about league expansion in these circumstances. I'd also expect 1 straight relegation and the same play offs as we have just now, with the 2nd bottom Premiership team being involved, to have a chance to stay up, i'd be as shocked as fuck for anything else (straight 2 up/2 down). So i'm not hopeful of anything too exciting happening with league reconstruction. Only way Premiership teams will vote in a turkeys voting for xmas scenario, is if it favours their chances to stay in the cash cow league.

Was surprised by what I saw about the plans for the lower leagues being ten strong but with two straight promotions and relegations add in to that the prospect of playoffs then there'll only be four clubs a season who wont be involved in either promotion or demotion.

Durnford wrote:Was surprised by what I saw about the plans for the lower leagues being ten strong but with two straight promotions and relegations add in to that the prospect of playoffs then there'll only be four clubs a season who wont be involved in either promotion or demotion.

League Two clubs have proposed three leagues of 14 for them to unanimously vote for reconstruction.

That is to protect themselves from having 2 more non-league sides introduced, the new intake clubs regularly have more ambition than the usual few at the bottom end of the league.

Brora & Kelty are both now on record saying how disappointed they are at the attitude of the 4th tier clubs as it shuts them out. Kelty have even said they would forego any prize money due them at the end of next season if they were brought into the SPFL by reconstruction.

Sounds like both they & Brora would prefer the Livi proposal & in Kelty’s case it’s not all about finances. Which is what I mean when I said the clubs that are outside of the SPFL are far more forward thinking & holistic than the usual shower of self-interested gits that proliferate the bottom end of the league.

We moved away from the closed shop of years gone by & certainly should never return to it.

Bertie Bassett wrote:Brora & Kelty are both now on record saying how disappointed they are at the attitude of the 4th tier clubs as it shuts them out. Kelty have even said they would forego any prize money due them at the end of next season if they were brought into the SPFL by reconstruction.

Sounds like both they & Brora would prefer the Livi proposal & in Kelty’s case it’s not all about finances. Which is what I mean when I said the clubs that are outside of the SPFL are far more forward thinking & holistic than the usual shower of self-interested gits that proliferate the bottom end of the league.

We moved away from the closed shop of years gone by & certainly should never return to it.

The real test would be how they acted after getting into the SPFL, amazing how many teams have succumbed to the influence of self preservation and greed, esp after getting into the top flight's land of milk and honey.

Talking of which, if this affects the Premiership's prize money, and I don't see how increasing the league to 14 wouldn't do, then it has to go to a minimum of 11-1 in favour for it to pass. Don't fancy those odds for reconstruction, ta ta Hearts.

Sounds like the Livi plan is unlikely too as bringing in Brora & Kelty apparently needs a higher number of votes than a straightforward reconstruction of the existing 42... of course it could be argued that unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures so for the good of the game a straightforward 2/3ds majority to bring in the change.

There are so many ways to look at it. I had a look at the BBC report from last week & thought I’d read the comments & there are certainly some real bird brains out there.

Well looks like the whole reconstruction idea has died on it’s backside.

I find it odd that they have gone through the charade of having a working party look at the options only to knock it on the head because “now is not the time” - surely that could have been said before assigning a working party?

It could also be argued (I know many of you will disagree & I’m not sure if I would agree myself but I recognise the argument could be made) that now is the perfect time to reconstruct as the league is incomplete, so really every option should be considered, nothing should be ruled out & the ultimate decision should be in the best interests of the sport, whichever way the chips fall.

I don’t agree with voiding the season but I can see that a case can be made for that too... IMO it is not a good case but when it comes down to it that is just an opinion.

If the league decides to “call it as it stands” then there will always be people who view the season as “asterisked” - they only won the title because of Covid-19 & they only got relegated because of Covid-19

The last big change only came about when Sevco died and Sevcovid12 was born, starting in the bottom tier, the rebranding of the league and merging of the SPL/SFL and a Premiership play off place. That would never have happened had Rangers avoided liquidation.

So imo, change will not happen now, once the dust has settled everyone will go on as is, there will be no incentive for change.

The League Two sides sabotaged reconstruction with their ultimatum, stating they'd only vote for 14-14-14, with no promotion from the LL & HL, though I doubt if it ever had any serious chance of happening. It was only ever put up for a proposal to placate the likes of Hearts, Falkirk, Partick Th etc, after the vote to end all lower leagues season's.

On the * against titles/relegations in 2019/20, I doubt anyone will really care, Celtic fans wont be giving a shiny shit when they go onto claim 10 in a row next season (or whenever football resumes). Same as we don't really give a feck about our home record only being so good because we've a plastic pitch, and that's the only reason we've never lost to Celtic on it. It just becomes a fun way to wind up opposition fans.

But there in your first paragraph is why this is actually the perfect time to reconstruct rather than the opposite as was being suggested by the Aberdeen bloke. Unprecedented events allow for unprecedented responses.

I agree that the league 2 sides have scuppered it with their ultimatum - tail wagging the dog again - and yeah I don’t care about the asterisk issue either - my only objection is to the nonsensical “reason” from the Aberdeen bloke.

I’d be surprised if Budge/Hearts let it lie.

Bertie Bassett wrote:But there in your first paragraph is why this is actually the perfect time to reconstruct rather than the opposite as was being suggested by the Aberdeen bloke. Unprecedented events allow for unprecedented responses.

I agree that the league 2 sides have scuppered it with their ultimatum - tail wagging the dog again - and yeah I don’t care about the asterisk issue either - my only objection is to the nonsensical “reason” from the Aberdeen bloke.

I’d be surprised if Budge/Hearts let it lie.

Yep, if not now then it'll never happen. But naebody really wants it enough to vote for reconstruction.

Nothing Budge can do about it, she's all hot air.

Interesting to hear that Livi supported the Huns motion for an independent enquiry into the vote that ended the lower divisions season... especially when they were one of the first to publicly commit to supporting that proposal... so the club has supported the motion to terminate the lower league season, supported the motion to consider reconstruction & supported the motion to investigate the procedures of the first motion.... seems a little strange... have we got a bunch of “yes” men? Did someone not understand what one of the motions was? Also... we had a board statement on the original vote & on the reconstruction idea but we have heard nothing as to why we have supported the latest motion.

Nice couple of posts on hun media about us.

EverestGers

1 hour ago, Paisley Blue Loyal said:
Still can't get my head round Livingston voting yes, Any ideas as to why given they are supposedly rabid as they come ?
They knew it was going to fail and being the sleekit fenian cock suckers that they are they voted with us hoping that would avoid the upcoming boycott of the blue pound. They’re fooling nobody

To be honest I'm past caring any more